Second Group Refugee Interview: North Korean Neocons!
Thanks again to reader Brendan Brown and his North Korean refugee students in Seoul, who have agreed to a second group interview to share their opinions about their homeland and give us a rare–albeit unscientific–glimpse into the perspective of ordinary North Koreans. Undoubtedly, it took great courage for them to discuss matters that could put them or their families at risk. For their protection, I have redacted details that could identify them.
Brendan is an Australian national who teaches English to North Korean refugees in Seoul. You can read the first such interview here.
Recently, the South Korean Ministry of Silly Talks Unification Ministry asked Brendan to act as an informal consultant on North Koreans’ views, since the refugees are apparently less trusting of the South Korean government.
Brendan writes:
As I have told you my students changed in February. I’m now teaching 17-21 year olds whose confidence I’m building up and aren’t too politically aware of many issues facing the peninsular. I still have regular contact with some of my former students whose personal opinions and experiences and those of their friends and peers formulated my report.
Among them are: [K], 26, from [redacted]. He has a brother still in the NK army who wishes to remain there.
[Y], 22, from [redacted], who was imprisoned at age 16 and whose parents are still incarcerated she believes. She’s a real sweety who keeps up positive appearances but she’s scarred and hurting deeply.
[H], 25, who was in the NK Army in [near the DMZ] before his unit was transferred to [near the Chinese border] which gave him the opportunity to defect in 2003 before arriving in SK in 2004. He still has family in [redacted] Province.
Mrs [C], isn’t a student but was a privileged journalist in Pyongyang before writing one paragraph in one article deemed critical of the regime and banished to [somewhere else]. After being forcibly married twice in China she escaped her abusive second husband naked in the middle of the night. . . .
I also asked some questions to some NK friends I saw during ‘NK Freedom Week’ in April.
1) On effective ways to communicate with North Koreans:
The most effective method is through those Koreans in the border area with China who either cross the border themselves or deal with those in China. They return with much sought after latest news on North Korea, China and the rest of the world. Increasingly they are returning with cell phones which are then used to call family members in China. Mrs C., who had a prestigious job as a writer in Pyongyang said anybody of any self importance listens to VOA [Voice of America].
2) If North Koreans could call a cell phone in South Korea to be too connected to relatives there, would they be interested?
Absolutely. [I was asked not to print the rest of the response, but it appears to be possible for refugees to smuggle phones and phone cards to friends and relatives in North Korea.]
3) Are camera phones widely available in North Korea? Would they be willing to send photos to the outside?
None of my students had seen camera phones in North Korea and are uncertain if people would risk sending photos to the outside world. Then again I was reminded more than once that hunger and desperation often force people to do things they wouldn’t normally do and so if someone to receive money or goods they may take the risk.
4) How have North Koreans reacted to the removal of Kim Jong-il portraits?
Not applicable as all my students left before that time.
5) Have North Koreans recently noticed an unusual number of changes in regime control personnel?
All my students crossed either the Amnok or Tumen Rivers into China. Border security was beefed up in the Yanggang/North Hamgyong border area (at least) around the middle of 2003. H. 25, from [redacted] who was in the KPA [Korean Peoples’ Army] and sent from [near the DMZ] to the [northern] border area was told by his commanders that the reason for stationing more troops on the North Korea/China border area was as a show of force and unity to China. Whether this was truly the reason or to stop more defectors from crossing the border he’s not sure.
6) In a typical North Korean village or neighborhood, what system (ie., organization of personnel) does the regime use to keep control of the population and spy on the people?
There is a system where five neighbouring households have regular meeting to keep track on each other and report any strange visitors, missing household residents or any sign of anti-government activities. Meetings in these houses usually alternate and it is often known who the informer is. Teachers enquire about mummy and daddy’s conversations.
7) Do the North Korean people still want re-unification with the South? What do most North Koreans think of the South Korean government and people?
Mixed bag of responses here. Of course their greater desire is for North Korea in its present form to disappear forever. Nearly all want to return to their hometowns in a free democratic North Korea.
As for re-unification and their feelings toward the South Korean government and people, the longer one has lived in South Korea the less favourably he considers re-unification and South Koreans. At first, after arriving in South Korea they are appreciative to be in a free and plentiful country and wish for immediate re-unification. However their initials feelings of gratitude eventually turn to disappointment and even resentment of their status in the eyes of South Koreans.
Many South Koreans are openly patronizing of the North Koreans in their dealings with them. Asking what it is like to eat leaves and barks or frogs at a first meeting isn’t a way to win North Koreans over. Neither is asking if any family members have starved to death or are imprisoned in North Korea (perhaps because of their own defection). North Koreans don’t welcome the bringing up of bitter memories by unknown people, yet many South Koreans ask these type of questions as if enquireing about the weather.
8) What do most North Korean people think of the Chinese government? The Chinese people?
At school, North Koreans are taught that the Chinese are brothers who helped (not saved) North Korea during the Korean War. Every North Korean I know passed through China on their way to South Korea and now all despise China’s government and people. The government for hunting them down and repatriating them to North Korea and the people for showing no sympathy and offering no help to them. A couple of students have said they will never forgive China for her actions.
9) What do North Koreans think of the U.S. government? U.S. people?
Perhaps the most surprising responses here.
While taught from kindergarten to hate everything about the U.S. and its people, while in North Korea there is no deviating from that position. Class did make a difference in people’s perceptions though.
Mrs. C., a journalist from Pyongyang before being sent to a rural area explained that those privileged few with knowledge of the outside world know that the U.S. isn’t the great evil it’s portrayed as being. Peasants and others do believe the propaganda and do date America intensely.
Their perceptions change after arriving in South Korea. Many hope to study, visit or even migrate there and Americans are admired as a freedom loving people. Their interest level in the U.S. is very high and a ‘must do’ thing after arriving in South Korea is to find out what the U.S, is really like.
Every student genuinely admires George W. Bush firstly for his “axis of evil” comment, more recently for his comments describing Kim Jong-il as “dangerous” and the mention of concentration camps and for his vision of democracy. [Brendan writes: These are not my personal opinions of Bush: I am merely reporting as they were conveyed to me.] To North Koreans human rights is the issue of most importance to them: more than the nuclear issue and even the removal of the present regime. Their belief is that Bush, Rice and “the guy with the white moustache” [Brendan says this is a reference to John Bolton] are the only ones who are doing anything about human rights.