Alejandro Cao de Benós Interview – Part 2
I’m struck by the quality and perceptiveness of Enzo’s questions. His knowledge of the subject matter greatly exceeds that of many journalists I see covering North Korea. It makes for a jarring contrast between Cao’s reality and ours. My favorite example is when Cao says, “I am well-known and respected person.” Cao also claims that he and Kim Jong Il have exchanged e-mails, which could actually be true.
For those who don’t know who Alejandro Cao de Benos is, I’d recommend the documentary “Friends of Kim.”
Once again, my thanks to Enzo. Don’t forget to check out his blogs, 1972 and Asiaedintorni. Questions and answers below the fold. Enjoy!
Looking at the pictures coming from North Korea, Pyongyang seems an imposing but empty city, with few passers-by and policemen directing a nonexistent traffic. Is this the reality?
Pyongyang is a monumental city, almost entirely rebuilt after the American bombing, with a population of 4 million people more or less. The sensation of emptiness comes from its size. In North Korea there is no traffic because we need to save fuel and the transport is entirely public. Every company, every ministry, every organization has 3 or 4 vehicles. Only certain categories of people have a private car: Korean residents in Japan who returned home in the ’80s, athletes, celebrities or prominent scientists. In Pyongyang all the buildings are people’s property but there are no private homes. The state gives the house to the citizens who don’t have to pay anything for renting or maintenance, provided they remain within the established parameters of energy consumption.
Is there any nightlife in Pyongyang? Are there cinemas, restaurants?
Of course there are. And also karaoke, bowling halls, cultural centers. Life is based on the spreading of culture, not only to Pyongyang, but throughout the country. People go to the parks with their families, play cards, fish, and generally go to bed very late, around 2 or 3 am.
What films are shown?
The cinema’s purpose is the formation of a social conscience. We don’t screen any movies that foster capitalism or the destruction of our society and there is no pornography. Kim Jong-il is a film enthusiast but, unlike what is said in the West, his film library does not include Hollywood titles.
How do people live in the capital and in the countryside? What are the differences?
Obviously rural areas have less services than the capital of the state but, in general, life in villages has always been better than in the big towns. For example, families can grow everything on the land allocated to them within the cooperatives. When there were food problems, peasants survived much better than the citizens of urban centers. Moreover, their wages are higher than those of the civil servants, almost double. The state takes care of everything: home, health care, food stamps (coupons).
Is the Public Distribution System (PDS) still working?
Of course. To each family are allocated quotas for food – eggs, chickens – but also for garment – shoes, clothes -. It ‘s true that during the “Arduous March” this system was curtailed but it was never interrupted, and since 2000 it has returned back to the previous levels. It’s the core of our socialism.
How do you judge the quality of life of North Korean people?
It ‘a humble but dignified life. People don’t need to worry about the day of tomorrow, don’t have loans to pay, they’re not afraid of losing their jobs. Every need is covered by the state.
Let’s suppose that I work so hard that I can afford a bigger house. Why can’t I buy it?
Because you have to sacrifice your selfishness for the common good. You have to focus your objectives toward ideology, not toward your material needs. It’s the advantage of an ideological system vs. a model based only on the economy.
Do people accept this view?
Totally. For that reason the system stands firm. In 2010 it wouldn’t be easy to remain a communist country of 24 million against people will.
There are many ways to keep up a system …
Currently, everyone without exception supports the system and would give his life for its survival. It’s not an imposition, it’s a reality.
In a quote recently included in an editorial of the party newspaper Rodong Sinmun, Kim Jong-il seems to recognize that the minimum needs of the population have not been covered yet. How should we interpret this admission?
Simply as awareness of what happened between 1995 and 2000 and that North Korea has never denied. After the collapse of other communist systems, our nation lost its foreign trade, the U.S. economic blockade became more intense and we were hit by a series of natural disasters. It was necessary to convert the country’s economy because it could work again, also opening to contacts with companies from the capitalist world. This phase of readjustment is not over yet.
It’s notorious that political and military elites enjoy privileges in comparison with the general population (in terms of houses, food and consumer goods). But North Korea is an egalitarian country: isn’t there a contradiction in this difference of conditions?
This is false. An army general is living like an employee of a shoe factory, in all areas of the country. Our vice-president lives in an apartment just like any other citizen. Otherwise the system would fall. People are not stupid.
But during the famine the members of the nomenklatura did receive bigger food rations compared to common people”¦
No, Kim Jong-il himself ate a bowl of rice like any other North Korean.
But he’s living in a palace …
Another lie. Our leader has some secret residences in different parts of the country for the simple reason that he constantly travels to stay with the people. On the contrary you could not see his pictures day after day from different locations.
Are all these pictures real?
All are real. Today he visits a pigs’ farm, tomorrow a military outpost, the next day a cooperative and every morning news reports keep the public informed about his travels and his meetings with common people at their homes.
What kind of books is it possible to read in North Korea? Is it true that the Grand People’s Study House of Pyongyang hosts Western texts, including novels by Orwell or even French classics? Who can frequent it?
I don’t know if there is Orwell, and it seems a mockery to me. But there are many Western books, usually classics. There are no problems provided that the texts don’t spread pornography or capitalist propaganda. All citizens can attend the Grand People’s Study House.
And in the bookshops what can be found?
A taste of everything: mathematics, geometry and the works of our leaders. Obviously control is crucial to ensure the vitality of the system.
Is it true that Kim Jong-il is an Internet’s fan?
He’s in general interested in new technologies. And I know for sure that he has an e-mail address.
Who writes to Kim Jong-il?
I’ve contacted him several times and I got answers. Obviously I bother him just for urgent matters.
As far as I know, in North Korea there’s no Internet as we conceive it. Can you describe how the network works and who is using it?
It’s an Intranet. Users can connect for free to chat or check their e-mails. It’s the same as the world wide web but it only works within the country. The informations are filtered to prevent people from coming into contact with pornographic or violent contents.
Like CNN’s news?
That is pure propaganda, not news.
How do North Koreans see themselves? Are they racist or tolerant people? To what extent nationalistic sentiments help to cement the regime? I ask you because it’s just been published a new book by B.R. Myers whose title is “The Cleanest Race”. I think it will provide some hints for a debate among experts and pundits.
North Korean nationalists are included within the Workers’ Party, which defends the sovereignty and integrity of the country. But the concept of race is alien to the North Korean society that, in fact, suffered immensely under occupying Japanese racist policies.
Did you have to pay a personal price for your political beliefs?
A very high price, because Western society is not free, but completely manipulated by the interests of the ruling class. I’ve lost important jobs, friendships that I thought consolidated, during many years I’ve had problems with my family. I suffered a lot. Now it’s different, I am well-known and respected person.
Do you feel freer in North Korea?
Of course. I’m living in a country where people share my own ideals and where you don’t have to worry about keeping an eye on the wallet. It ‘a social model that allows you to relax.
In the West, North Korea is widely regarded as the paradigm of the totalitarian state in which human rights and fundamental freedoms are nonexistent and where each position contrary to the official one is radically suppressed. I would like to know your version.
Those who support such a point of view don’t know anything about the history and culture of North Korea. I am a person who has always preferred to see for myself what others took for granted. So I did with North Korea and I must say that the vast majority of people who visit our country change their mind once they take note of the reality.
How would you describe North Korean political system?
A socialist system based on Juche ideology, whose core is the man as main actor of social transformation.
Do you believe that North Korean people are generally happy with their way of life?
Yes, very happy. Much more than in the West. Every time I come to Spain I cannot wait to return to Pyongyang, after seeing the amount of people in economic distress and worried about their future. The North Koreans live in a better society from a mental, ideological and spiritual point of view.
So why are people trying to flee abroad, risking their own lives?
Because propaganda in Western media is very strong. In any case many of so-called “refugees” crossed the border with China in the years of food shortage, because the conditions in the North were very hard. Most of them returned later and only a few hundred people decided to stay in China, convinced by promises of easy profits. If these people today came back to Korea, they should explain why they decided not to return along with all others. Fearing social rejection, they prefer to try their luck in South Korea.
But today the flow of refugees continues.
They are isolated cases, usually influenced by propaganda. In many cases, they come back and are again accepted. There is no punishment for them, contrary to what some Western media say. Something different are spying cases, actually a crime against the state. For one who leaves, every day many thousands show their loyalty to the regime.
Why the North Korean government does not allow its citizens to travel outside the borders of the state?
North Koreans can travel abroad but always with a very specific mission assigned or approved by the government. Moreover travel is expensive and requires funds that only the state can make available. In the future, with a better economy for everyone, North Koreans will be able to travel freely.
If I visit Pyongyang may I talk to people?
Yes, if I am with you.
Foreigners who visit North Korea must always be accompanied by an official guide that never let them alone. Why?
Because people don’t know them and, for security reasons, we have to keep some distance. Every day the United States are trying to infiltrate spies into our country, slaughter us with their propaganda and destroy our economy. By the CoCom Americans affect our trade relations with foreign countries. For example, we cannot buy medicines from Canada because, otherwise, they would have many problems with Washington. In this situation of uninterrupted oppression at all levels, a small and economically fragile country like North Korea must defend itself against unwanted intrusions. North Koreans are tired of lies and false people.
Why in North Korea there’s no opposition to the government? Why don’t you ever listen any dissenting views from the line of the Party-State?
Because in our socialist system there’s a concept of unity that makes us all work for the same common project. In North Korea we have an ideology that, from an early age, nurtures in the citizens a natural attraction towards this kind of society, so that everyone wants to feel involved. The key of the system’s victory lies in preventing anti-socialist propaganda from entering the country, but above all in the education of the new generations. There aren’t any discordant voices in North Korea because nobody tries to impose his vision to the neighbours.
But it’s probable that, privately, everyone has deeply different views about the political and social situation. Why can’t these ideas be publicly expressed?
Of course they can, as long as people respect the institutions. What we cannot afford is washing our dirty linen in public. Grievances can be submitted to the district’s political representative who will see, if necessary, to submit a motion to the Party and the People’s Assembly. There will be no retaliation if the proposal is respectful. What we don’t allow is the spreading of social disorder by anti-government activities, proselytism, conflicts among religious groups.
Refugees and even former members of the regime attest to the presence of a dense network of concentration camps in North Korean territory. What are these camps and who is locked up there?
There aren’t any concentration camps but extensive portions of territory where common people work, collective farms or groups dedicated to forest services. There are no prisoners. The statements of the so-called refugees are handsomely paid by those who have an interest in spreading these lies. Who is talking about concentration camps does it for money, more often than not bestowed by fundamentalist Christian organizations in exchange for false testimonies. For a home and a job in Seoul it’s normal that some people are willing to lie.
There are also satellite images showing the existence of fenced and monitored fields.
The satellites don’t explain what they are about. We can see “something”, not concentration camps. The military presence is due to the fact that the army is always in the forefront in the most important and complex works. The buildings we can observe are, in many cases, military bases or barracks for the soldiers. It’s impossible by satellite to distinguish these structures from collective farms or something else.
Do you deny the existence of political prisoners in North Korea?
It’s a phenomenon that doesn’t occur in our country. I never heard of anyone who protested against Kim Jong-il, nor have I ever seen anti-government graffiti on the walls in our cities or villages.
If it has nothing to hide, why doesn’t North Korean government allow the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights to enter the country?
Would you open your house’s door to someone who has publicly insulted and slandered you and your family? Both UN and Amnesty International, without any knowledge of the reality of the country, dare to publish reports that damage our reputation. By whom are these organizations paid?
Do you believe that in North Korea human rights are respected?
Yes, I do.
What’s your personal concept of human rights?
Everyone is entitled to the satisfaction of his basic needs, without exception: housing, food, work, a life in peace, harmony and happiness. These are the basic rights of the person, in our view.
And freedom of speech, press, movement, association?
You cannot have it all. It ‘s necessary to sacrifice one’s own individuality for the good of the community. Besides, the concept of freedom is closely linked to the people’s economic possibilities and, as such, purely theoretical: 80 percent of the world population can’t benefit from it. Let’s hope that capitalism goes through many other crisis like the last one.
What about religious freedom?
It’s granted in North Korea.
Nowadays, are there class enemies in North Korea?
Not just class enemies but in general people who make mistakes and need to be socially re-educated. If one citizen acknowledges his error – for example in a case of corruption – and publicly apologizes, then he’s forgiven. Depending on the job, he can be downgraded.
So, you still play public sessions of self-accusation and ideological indoctrination.
Of course, in work units and in Party cells. The idea is that everyone is an integral part of a large family and he must bear the responsibility before the other members.
What is your personal position on death penalty? In what situations is it inflicted in North Korea?
I am totally against death penalty. In North Korea this kind of punishment officially exists but it is applied very rarely, only in espionage and sabotage cases.
(End Part 2)